FaithBuilder Creation Debate
The earth is about 6,000 years old, or the earth is millions or billions of years old. So which is it? That is the topic of the FaithBuilder 2005 Creation Debate.
The organizer of the event, AM 980 KKMS plans on making this debate available on DVD, as well as the next day’s follow-up young earth lecture. Contact the station for details.
The Participants
Young Earth: Tom DeRosa
Creation Studies Institute
Old Earth: Dr. Kyle Frazier
Reasons to Believe, Minneapolis, Minnesota Chapter
Moderator: Todd Friel
AM 980 KKMS
Part I: State Your Case in Ten Minutes
Please note that unless otherwise noted, everything is paraphrased. Mistakes are mine alone. I found it difficult at times keeping up with the pace of the discussion!
OE, Frazier
Science apologetics is important. In the 5 Minute Apologist Dr. Rick Cornish states, “Research indicates that up to 80% of evangelical kids lose their faith in college.”
- Astronomers believe the universe was created out of nothing, a.k.a., the Big Bang.
- Growing numbers of scientists also believe in the “fine-tuning” of the Big Bang, the theory that there are so many finely-tuned constants and laws in the universe that there has to be some kind of intelligence behind the design of the universe.
- Prof. Antony Flew, decades-long champion for unbelievers and atheists, revised his book, God and Philosophy, to reflect his new belief in the existence of God. The change in his beliefs was due, in part, to arguments implied by the Big Bang theory and fine-tuning arguments. [http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew]
- The Big Bang irritated Einstein, and his equations for general relativity indicated the universe was either expanding or contracting. So, he introduced a cosmological constant, a “fudge factor”, to his equations to keep the universe’s size static. Later, however, he admitted doing this was the “Greatest blunder of my life.”
- Bible verses:
- Genesis 1:1
- Hebrews 11:3
- Job 9:8
- Psalms 104:2
- Isaiah 40:22 (and many more from Isaiah)
- Zechariah 12:1
Old earth creation is Biblically faithful. Science agrees with it. The origin of life and Cambrian Explosion (the time period when many different life forms appear in the fossil record) fit Biblical creation.
YE, DeRosa
- Dr. Mary Higby Schweitzer, of North Carolina State University and Montana State University, found a Tyrannosaurus Rex fossil still containing collagen and other soft tissue, suggesting the fossil was recent. The fossil was found in Montana’s Hell Creek Formation.
- The Big Bang theory has problems
- Currently, 50 theories explain inflation
- Violates the second law of thermodynamics—entropy: everything eventually falls apart, spreads out, goes from order to disorder, etc.
- One petroleum geologist: oil wells can’t support high pressure for more than 10,000 years; over time oil is pushed into the surrounding porous rock structures.
- Some examples of 25-foot tall strata created in a matter of hours (days?)
- Basalt rock found at the top of the Grand Canyon dates significantly older than rock at the bottom.
Part II: Clarification of Opening Remarks
OE, Frazier: It’s true that oil does not exist under long-term pressure.
YE, DeRosa: Belief in long-ages doesn’t equal credibility. Presumptions color how you look at data. There are too many inconsistencies in dating data.
Friel: Dating suggests old earth?
YE, DeRosa: Dating actually suggest a young earth. Diamonds found to date young with radiometric dating. The earth has the appearance of age; things were created fully formed. See Genesis.
OE, Frazier: Radiometric dating has also been used on Biblical artifacts. Natural processes affect dating.
Friel: God formed a complete universe, but are you [Frazier] suggesting evolution?
OE, Frazier: I don’t believe God used evolution, but “fully-formed” has problems. The appearance of age—why would God do that as a deception?
Friel: There is a lack of fossil record for intermediate forms.
OE, Frazier: We [old earth creationists] don’t look for intermediate fossils.
Friel: But if not evolution….
OE, Frazier: Reasons.org has information about a word study for “Let there be” in Genesis. Why wouldn’t God use natural processes?
YE, DeRosa: Biblical artifacts are know to be of young age. New rock taken from Mount St. Helen’s has been dated at 11 million years old. The rock samples contained alpha particles, helium, indicating a young age.
Friel: Where does entropy fit in?
OE, Frazier: It exists and is part of the Big Bang, cooling of the universe, background radiation.
Friel: What about the dinosaur bones? The rocks from Mount St. Helens?
OE, Frazier: Dating is known to be off after a certain age.
YE, DeRosa: In collecting bones, etc.
Friel: Why are dinosaurs extinct? What about the soft tissue?
OE, Frazier: They died long ago, but maybe they didn’t all die.
YE, DeRosa: Data shows support for a world-wide disaster, like the flood. The Bible talks about creation, not nature. You find “God said” ten times in Genesis 1. John 1:1 refers to Genesis.
Part III: Why the Bible Says About the Earth’s Age
Young Earth, DeRosa
- No fossils until Genesis 3.
- Romans 8:20-22 refers to Genesis 3:17.
- Long-age says the sun was created before the earth, but the Bible says the earth was created before the sun.
- Genesis 1:1: “beginning, ” reshiyth (ray-she-eth’) refers to the creation of time.
- Genesis 1:4-5: yom, the creation of a literal day.
- Literal day in context (Old Testament)
- 2291 times.
- 349 with a number, which always means 24 hours.
- “Evening and morning” indicates 24 hours.
- Exodus 20:11 reiterates six-day creation.
- Exodus 31:16-17 lasting covenant as a sign of the six-day creation.
OE, Frazier
Genesis days are long periods of time, but we [old earth creationists] hold that evolution is untrue. Geologic features indicate long time periods. Old earth creation is consistent with scripture.
What others have to say:
- [Dr. James Montgomery] Boice claims there is a historical basis.
- James Ussher (1650) and John Lightfoot (1642) worked through the Biblical genealogies and determined 4004 BC to be the year of creation. [http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/the_genesis_genealogies.shtml].
- C. John Collins, Science and Faith.
- Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology.
- Dr. J. P. Moreland [http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/moreland_jp_age_of_earth.shtml].
Yom’s meanings:
- Period of daylight.
- 24 hours.
- Point of time, a moment.
- Indefinite length of time.
- Psalm 90:4 indicates a “day” is longer than 24 hours.
The Bible talks about unicorns, but we don’t have any.
Bible verses showing it is against God’s character to deceive; the appearance of age is against the character of God
- Psalms 119:60
- Isaiah 45:19
- Hebrews 6:18
- There is a Bible verse that says, “The heavens declare the glory of God.” [Psalms 19:1]
Part IV: More Clarifications
Friel: Is there a contradiction between the Bible and science?
OE, Frazier: Correctly interpreted, science and the Bible will not contradict each other.
YE, DeRosa: The appearance of age does not indicate a deception. There is an overwhelming amount of data supporting a young earth. For example, bones with tissue, “kind after kind,” helium in rock.
OE, Frazier: Romans 1:18-20 says [quotes the verse]... wrath of God… for since the creation of… men without excuse…. It’s plain.
YE, DeRosa: Romans doesn’t necessarily support old earth. Science is limited by human limitations.
Friel: Was there death before Adam?
OE, Frazier: Yes. Romans 5:12 refers to a physical death.
Friel: Who was responsible for death prior to Adam and Eve?
OE, Frazier: It has been calculated that fruit flies in seven generations would completely overwhelm the earth if there were no animal death.
YE, DeRosa: We don’t know what the Garden of Eden was like.
[My thought: Maybe the fall happened long after creation. Upon further reflection: No, that can’t be. Adam and Eve had children by the time Adam was 130 years old. In the grand scheme of things, 130 years isn’t long.]
Part V: Audience Questions
Q: God is revealed in scripture and nature. What are the implications of old earth vs. young earth in nature?
YE, DeRosa: Data and evidence shows young earth, but it’s very hard for science to declare an exact age.
Q: Matthew 18:16 talks about a millstone, and 2 Peter 3 talks about [?]. How long would it take entropy to cause the temperature of the earth to become absolute zero? Why trust radiometric dating when it supports your presuppositions and not trust it when it does not?
YE, DeRosa: 2 Peter 3 supports the flood. As for dating, there is a big variance in dating methods. Radiometric dating only works for igneous rocks. Carbon dating works for items less than about 5,000 years old, but it is very hard to measure something around 50,000 years old.
Q: Jesus raised Lazarus, after he was already decaying. But he was regenerated, so couldn’t then God have created in six days?
OE, Frazier: Yes, he could have. But Lazarus was not a normative event; it was for a select few. God could have created in 144 hours. Why not 144 seconds, etc. So, why not old earth?
Q: Genesis 3 [sic, should be Genesis 2] has man pining for a companion, indicating that took some time.
YE, DeRosa: It took some time to name the animals. But at the time there was harmony among man, nature, and God, and everything was declared good. Man’s brain may have been efficient [enough for the naming to happen during the one day].
Q: There is a theory that creation and judgement have happened repeatedly. Is there Biblical support for this?
OE, Frazier: Sounds much like reincarnation. Scriptures say no.
Q: In 1969 Americans were on the moon. Scientists estimated there should be 90 inches of dust on the moon, because it is very old. But they only found 2 inches. How does science reconcile the difference?
YE, DeRosa: They were wrong.
Q: Genesis 1.1 indicates no time period existed that part of creation. What about red shift?
YE, DeRosa: Red shift is OK.
Q: Frazier said that holding to young earth creation harms your witness. How?
OE, Frazier: I started believing old earth creation after reading Creation and Time, by Dr. Hugh Ross. I wondered, would different persons of the Godhead experience time differently?
Q: [?]
[?]: Genesis 1.1 says “in the beginning”; time was created as well. God is outside of time. He doesn’t need time.
Q: Purposeful context: Einstein and Hawking made the mistake not to consider the beginning. We can’t limit God to one interpretation. Is the return of Christ ultimately plausible for young earth creation?
YE, DeRosa: God knows the day of return.
Q: Explain whether it is heretical to say that before creation God knows in the future that man will die, that God knows man will sin.
OE, Frazier: If death occurred in the Garden, I am a heretic. If no, then Tom [DeRosa] is a heretic.
Q: Is young earth vs old earth a heresy issue?
YE, DeRosa: The Word of God says, “God said….” The Word of God gives the cross its power.
Q: So, heresy?
YE, DeRosa: [No answer.]
OE, Frazier: God is more about inclusion than exclusion. Labels are more from humans.
[The audience, myself included, react negatively, though quietly. My view: the Bible is pretty clear that although God may want to include everyone in heaven, He is quite exclusionary about who He will allow in.]
Q: How accurate is radiometric dating? If you run 100 radiometric dating experiments, how many are suspect?
YE, DeRosa: I consider them all suspect.
[The audience, myself included, are puzzled. Until now, DeRosa has been frequently using radiometric dating in support of his position, but now he considers all radiometric dating suspect?]
Q: 100 carbon dating experiments?
YE, DeRosa: I consider them if for young, less than 5,000 year old, artifacts.
Q: Referring to Genesis 5:5, if a day equals a thousand years, explain how Adam lived 950 years.
OE, Frazier: Context between creation and age of Adam.
Q: Does old earth creation follow the order of Biblical creation?
OE, Frazier: Yes. Fingerprint of God book. Genesis 1:1 is a summary, after is more detail.
Q: Fundamental Christians have a more literal interpretation of Eden. Atheists say it’s a historical story only. What is the theology of creation and the gospel?
OE, Frazier: [I missed his answer.]
YE, DeRosa: Referring to Genesis 3, we have sin, so Jesus comes. Without sin, there would be no need for a savior.
Part VI: Closing Remarks
OE, Frazier
Creation occurred in six long periods. It is important to remain culturally relevant, but not to give into culture.
YE, DeRosa
The bottom line is we don’t know everything. Data supports young earth. We have a young earth because “God said.” Why have creation? See John 1.
Final Thoughts
Overall, the debate was thought-provoking and fast-paced. Perhaps too fast-paced: both debaters had so much information that at times they had trouble presenting the condensed versions of their respective standard presentations. And, as I said before, I sometimes had trouble keeping up. You may want to obtain the forthcoming DVD.
[Reflections on Olive Tree Ministries Fall 2005 Conference >]